Discogs Order #6506-2357

HVL (2) – Hidden Valley E.P. (12″, EP) (Rough House Rosie – RHR 013) £3.75

Our reply 18/04/2024 at 05:36

Hi,

We’ve checked our files for GTR and stand by our grading of that.

If you follow the link below and scroll down to the bottom you’ll see the images/audio taken from GTR:

https://reflectionsofyesterday.co.uk/index.php/discogs-order-6506-2357/

We’ve sent the link to our PayPal rep, Clive for reference.

We’ve not had anything through by email as requested in our earlier message to you to support your issue with Secretsundaze.

We appreciate there can be issues with new releases but until we see or hear evidence of this we can’t do anything about it.

If you want to reach out to us about that please send images/audio over to our email address: aficionadovinylsales@gmail.com and we’ll be happy to take a look/listen.

Best,
AV

Message from buyer 18/04/2024 at 09:10

I’ve looked at the photos you took of GTR and they are never going to show anything done at an angle like that with that resolution! I will take photos and send to the email address you gave me. The photos I took of secretsundaze were poor due to bad light last night but they do still clearly show the marks I spoke of, so that is not even in question.
Do you really think I would go to all this trouble to complain over relatively cheap records?
I’ve been in this game since ’93 and I know the gold mine grading system inside out. I only bought GTR because it was listed as nearly mint. I used to have a copy back in the day so I know the record very well and the Justin Robertson side seems to have lost the edge off the top end. Perhaps it was played with a worn stylus or badly set up tone arm or something. Maybe my memory is faulty and it always was a different sound quality to the other side but the record is not nearly mint due to all the fine scratches and audible clicks/pops.
It’s not a big deal but it winds me up when people basically call me a liar. Poorly took photos are not proof of anything unless you are showing obvious scratches/marks.
As I said, I will take decent photos of the record when I get home and you will see that I am right, irrespective of what file you have on record.
I’m not looking for a refund on GTR but I would like secretsundaze replacing if you have another copy.
-regards Mike

Our reply 18/04/2024 at 11:25

Michael,

Regarding GTR, we’ve listened again to the B side and there are zero clicks/pops – are you certain this was the copy you played and not your original copy that you mentioned in your last message to us?

We’ve had every scenario imaginable, even someone once complaining over a 50p record that was included free of charge and have been doing this since 1982 which is why we cover ourselves by taking photographs and audio of every single second hand record we sell. The photo’s aren’t meant to be professional quality as they are taken by an iPhone 15 Pro.

We have had people return alternative records to us in the past, claiming that’s what we sent out when we can prove we didn’t. If anyone is unhappy with their order we need to see/hear evidence of issues so that we can act accordingly and set the next steps in motion.

At what point have we called you a liar?

If you are unhappy with the item(s) we sent, please feel free to return them for a refund as per our terms and conditions you will have to pay for the return postage – please ensure that it is sent recorded or tracked.

Return reference R-6506-2357 (please quote this on the outer packaging)

Address to return to is:

Aficionado Vinyl
39 James Atkinson Way
Crewe
CW1 3NX

Best,
AV

Message from buyer 18/04/2024 at 17:27

You insinuated I’m trying it on by showing me poorly taken photos as proof that the record hasn’t got scratches but it has, which is tantamount to calling me a liar in a round about way. And given that the other copy has been buried in my loft somewhere for the last 18 years then yes I’m pretty sure it’s the right one. I could have written the script here; I knew exactly what was coming next. I already said I wasn’t looking for a refund on it so why are we even arguing over it anyway? I sent you photos of secretsundaze which you still haven’t confirmed that you received even though they were sent to the precise email address you gave me. I’m certainly not paying for return on a 4 pound record that was supposed to be mint and clearly isn’t.
I’m particularly unhappy with the spiel you’ve just fed me to be quite honest. I have a high-end audio system and it picks up everything so mp3 quality sound that was most likely recorded with inferior equipment certainly isn’t going to cut it I’m afraid, and in fact you can still hear an audible click on your own poor recording if you actually listen carefully.

-regards Mike

Our reply 19/04/2024 at 07:49

Michael,

Firstly, apologies regarding your images – they went into our spam folder and we’ve only just found them this morning. They aren’t clear at all though so we are unable to see what the issue is.

You did say you would send better quality images in a previous message but nothing else has come through so far.

We didn’t insinuate anything as those images we take are the same images we take for every second hand record we sell that show both the surface of the playing area of the record and the label(s).

This is the equipment we use to make our recordings with:

Audio-Technica AT-LP140XP Professional Direct Drive Manual Turntable
Ortofon Concorde Mix MKII Cartridge
Pioneer DJM-250 ML II Mixer
Tascam SS-R100 Solid State Recorder

All recordings are wav files 16bit 44.1khz files which is what we linked to and we still stand by what we said with our grading of NM as there are no, none, zero, nada, zip (however else you would like us to word it) pops/clicks/scratches etc on the B side of GTR. We’ve had this verified by two other people who agree.

We are very knowledgeable about mastering, vinyl pressing, distribution and of course online retail of vinyl records as we’ve been involved with several labels and ran 4 ourselves so we do know what we’re talking about.

As we stated earlier, if you aren’t happy – which is clear that you aren’t, then you are welcome to return any item(s) for a refund. When you placed the order you agreed to our and Discogs terms and conditions – unsure if you actually read them or not but for clarity here they are again, please do re-read them very carefully and you will see that in the event you wish to return any item(s) you will need to pay for return postage as we don’t cover that.

https://www.discogs.com/seller/AficionadoVinyl/profile#terms

Best,
AV

Message from buyer 19/04/2024 at 12:06

You just keep repeating the same thing. No they aren’t that clear but they still show VERY obvious marks on the vinyl which constantly click as its played. It’s obvious now that you’re going to disagree on everything I say, paying lip service to discogs in the process.
I’ve been stuck on a major breakdown at work last night and today so I’ve not been home long enough to even think about photographing vinyl.
Ask yourself this. If I was trying to pull a fast one with secretsundaze then why on earth would I be asking for an exchange? That doesn’t make sense. It’s your attitude that offends me. You have graded a well played, all be it well cared for, record as near mint which it isn’t. You’ve also sent one warped record which is new and one damaged record that is new, both of which you clearly have no intention of exchanging unless I pay for return postage, which is totally wrong. At what point do you think that maybe this is not the correct way to treat your customers.
OK you disagree on GTR, but I wasn’t asking for a refund, so this is purely down to your ego being hurt.
Frankly I couldn’t care less about any of this now. I’ve wasted too much time trying to get a reasonable answer and it just isn’t worth the investment of time, back and forthing with you.
Two definites and one contentious out of four isn’t good, and you’ve been avoiding accepting any kind of responsibility for all of it despite selling, packing and distributing said records.

Our reply 19/04/2024 at 12:23

Michael,

You said yourself that those images weren’t very good (yours) and would send better ones – we’re still waiting for this and or audio where we can hear these “clicks” you mention.

Interesting that Polytunnel being ‘warped’ in your very first message and then in a follow up message from you, you said this:

“GTR and poly tunnel are fine”

We took that to meant the ‘warp’ was so insignificant or perhaps it wasn’t warped and lay flat when placed on the turntable, yet only now you mention it again – you seem to change your mind with the weather !!

Regardless of the value of a record if a buyer is not happy with it and wishes for a refund the buyer MUST return the record for either refund or replacement – we do not just send out records by request when we haven’t had any evidence supporting an issue.

This would apply if you bought records in a brick and mortar shop, they wouldn’t just refund you without you bringing back the records.

As we’ve said and will continue to say:

If you are unhappy with the item(s) we sent, please feel free to return them for a refund as per our terms and conditions you will have to pay for the return postage – please ensure that it is sent recorded or tracked.

Return reference R-6506-2357 (please quote this on the outer packaging)

Address to return to is:

Aficionado Vinyl
39 James Atkinson Way
Crewe
CW1 3NX

You might not like our attitude but we’ve offered you a solution here. However, it does seem your unwillingness to provide proper supporting evidence (images/audio) or to return any items you are not happy with speaks volumes.

Best,
AV

Message from buyer 19/04/2024 at 21:07

Further emails with clear images and an audio clip have been sent to the email address you gave me. I’m not entering into any more dialogue over this.
My point is proven, I’m not a liar, and I take great exception to the suggestion I’m trying it on.
I’ve been buying records and djing for fun since 1993, and I’m a self-confessed audio fanatic with far too much high-end equipment to prove it.
You may well have had the wool pulled over your eyes in the past, but you can not treat everyone with the same disdain, and I’m extremely annoyed at the way you insulted me.
Those first emails were written in between a heavy work load, and were obviously rushed and not thought about. This has been taken to extremes as if I’ve tried to pull a fast one. It purely comes down to your suspicious attitude, and staunch refusal to accept you may be wrong. Instead of taking what I said at face value, offering a mild apology, and an easy route to return, you’ve had me jumping through hoops to prove a ridiculous point over an overgraded £5 vintage vinyl and a £4 new one.
Nobody should be expected to pay return postage on a damaged vinyl, and decent customer relations would have been to offer some kind of apology even if you didn’t mean it.
At the end of the day, three out of four vinyls are unsatisfactory, and not once have you entertained the notion that it might actually be true.
Please read the emails to aficionadovinyls, and look at the attachments. You will see I’m correct, even if you still intend to pay lip service to discogs by denying it.

-regards Mike

Our reply 20/04/2024 at 11:14 

Michael,

Thanks for your several detailed emails.

We listened to the clip of secretsundaze and couldn’t hear anything that sounded out of the ordinary – it sounded to us like either a sampled rim shot or a wooden block sound that made up part of the rhythm pattern?

The final copy of Secretsundaze sold last night so we do not have any further copies in stock. The distributor who held copies of it are no longer operating so we wouldn’t be able to obtain any more copies of that release.

Now, if you are not happy with your purchase and wish to return any items for a refund as per our terms and conditions which you agreed to when you placed the order you will need to return those item(s) at your expense.

For reference – here are our terms and conditions in case you missed the previous link;

https://www.discogs.com/seller/AficionadoVinyl/profile#terms

Please ensure that your package is sent recorded or tracked.

Return reference R-6506-2357 (please quote this on the outer packaging)

Address to return to is:

Aficionado Vinyl
39 James Atkinson Way
Crewe
CW1 3NX

Best,
AV

Message from buyer 20/04/2024 at 13:30

Well what a surprise eh?
Couldn’t have guessed you would pay lip service to discogs while simultaneously lying through your back teeth.
I’m not interested in anything you have to say.
If you think that a crack through a speaker sounds like a wood block or a rim shot you are extremely tone deaf, but we both know you are simply lying to cover your own ends.
You are a bunch of lying shysters selling defective records and insulting your customers when they complain.
I have proved everything unequivocally 100%
Absolutely disgusting behaviour, and it’s people like you that are ruining the Discogs community.
All of this because you dont want to pay for return postage on a defective record that YOU distributed.
If Discogs allowed attachments this would have been a whole different story as you wouldn’t have been able to lie like you have.
I wouldn’t waste my time sending anything back to you as most likely it would mysteriously go missing or counter claimed damaged by customer or whatever.
There are many and varied expletives that could, and frankly should, be used to convey how I feel but it really would be another waste of my time.

Our reply 20/04/2024 at 13:37

Michael,

There’s simply no need for abuse from you which is actually slander

“You are a bunch of lying shysters”

We’ll speak to our legal team about this and in the meantime we’ve blocked you from ordering from us again and will report you to Discogs as you’ve gone against their terms of service with your hate speech.

A real shame you could not remain civil. You’ve shown your true colours and it speaks volumes about the disgusting kind of person you really are.

Very poor form.